Lim gasket 3800 - Jan 15, 2011 · AS for LIM gaskets though, they do fail on the Series 2 3800's, but don't confuse the problems with the Series 1 3800's. Those will go 200k on original LIM gaskets without a problem. Quote

 
head gasket. Jump to Latest Follow 1K views 4 replies 3 participants last post by dieyanks13 Jan 5, 2013. D. dieyanks13 .... Gallatin landfill

GM has issued a number of technical service bulletins describing the problem and recommended repairs (which may require replacing the intake manifold bolts as well as the gaskets). Here are some of the bulletins: • TSB 03-06-01-010B covers intake manifold leaks on 1999-2003 3.1L & 3.4L engines. • TSB 03-06-01-016 covers intake manifold ...GEN III ok on L32 LIM? Jump to Latest Follow 1K views 3 replies 3 participants last post by GoldmemberBonneville Oct 25, 2006. GoldmemberBonneville Discussion starter 484 posts ...Dec 8, 2006 · Oct 25, 2010. #1. It finally happened. 1999 Park Avenue, 87,000 miles. Took it in for the rear brake pads, and while the mechanic was driving it to check the brakes, the coolant passage through the intake manifold failed. He barely got it back to the shop before the plugs finally fouled out from the coolant that got sucked into the engine. I have a stock 3800 L67, Installing a new UIM and LIM gaskets. This car is going to be with my son for a couple of years, I won't have daily access to it to keep track of fluid levels. ... Heck, I spent ~5yrs around the Twin Cities in the 3800 peak years, and even dated a girl from Mahtomedi/Grant for a couple years while helping build many if ...Things on a 3800 FWD that can give you lean banks. (not in any special order) 2. Leaking Valves 3. Leaking LIM gaskets 4. Wires (bad, connected wrong) 5. Plugs (loose, bad) ... Nor the LIM gasket- cause I just had it replaced. Save Share. Like. Show more replies. 0 Reply. dmon901. 691 posts · Joined ...Parts List: UIM kit with included gaskets (it might include the elbows) LIM gaskets from a GM dealer (make sure they're reinforced) Coolant elbows. Throttle body gasket. Silicone grease or dielectric grease. Permatex 2B. Distilled water and new Dexcool. I'll post more info as I think of it.Jun 21, 2011 · I know there are some other threads on this topic, I did not want to hijack them though. I've had issues with my car not wanting to start on occasion when it was warm, or if I used the AC while it was idling. After about 2-3 years without being able to find out what the problem was, I'm pretty... Intake manifold gaskets still fail, but not as common. The F-body 3800 has an aluminum intake manifold, (no composite upper) therefore disregard anything you …Gaskets & Adhesives. Gauges & Gauge Pods. Ignition. Intercooling. Pulleys & Belts. Stage Kits Supercharger Parts & Kits. Suspension. Transmission & Drivetrain ... ZZP 3800 M90 Blower Dress Up Kit. $59.99 $59.99. Quick shop. Rebuilt M90 Snout. from $200.00 from $200.00. Quick shop. M90 Block Off Plate. $49.99 $49.99. Quick shop.I replaced the lim and uim gaskets and valve cover gaskets on my 04 Monte Carlo with the 3800, ran good lastnight. Today low oil pressure light came on when the car warmed up. Any ideas of anything I could have messed up or broke?LIM=lower intake manifold, the part that needs to come off to change the gaskets. the bolts that hold it on, take a flash light and look down at the bolts, see if you have coolant there. thats just the bolts leaking, not necessarily the lim gasket gone bad yet. the bolts need thread sealant on them because they go into the water jackets of the ...I remember how inconsistant the LIM was when placing gaskets along the ports..some had what "looked" like 1/2 inch of casting/metal blocking the flow!I may be new here but keep us informed how it comes out! ... A forum community dedicated to all General Motors makes and models owners and enthusiasts running the 3800 series engine. Come join the ...Hi I installed the new GM aluminum framed LIM gaskets & Dorman UIM last weekend on my friends '99 LeSabre. The car has 123,000 miles and I thought it was...DBS analyst Lim Rui Wen maintained a Buy rating on Oversea-Chinese Banking (OVCHF – Research Report) on February 27 and set a price target... DBS analyst Lim Rui Wen maintain...BillBoost37. 1565 posts · Joined 2006. #2 · Dec 16, 2008. You can use almost any sealant. I prefer the GM Pipe Sealant with PTFE. Even an RTV should work though. On the coolant elbows, make sure and lube up the o-rings before you put them in. 1997 Bonneville SSEi 1/4 Mile 13.185. 1997 Regal GS.Supercharged 3800 Series 2 Transverse mount engines. Changing the Lower Intake Manifold (LIM) gaskets and Supercharger This is a post for advanced... Log In. GM 3800 Service Tips, Techniques, and Advice ...LIM gasket & Lifter replacement..Why the hell did they replace the lifters? ... 3100 ticks real loud until it warms up then it quiets down, and it also shakes like crazy like its misfiring does the 3800 do the same thing? SMGPFC Member #10 . Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 Last. Jump to page: Similar Threads. Lifter tick? By My GTP 97 in forum 3.8L V6 ...Originally Posted By: artificialist Originally Posted By: sciphi Originally Posted By: PhillyJoe Since you plan on taking the top half off, remember that the head gaskets have the same miles as LIM gaskets. Also check the water pump. The 3800's almost never need head gaskets. Almost nobody on the 3800 forums replaces head …List for LIM Gasket replacement : Page 1 of 2 [ 39 posts ] Go to page 1, 2 Next Print view: Previous topic | Next topic : Author Message; 00Beast Post subject: List for LIM Gasket replacement. Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:09 am . Retired Site Developer: Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:30 pm Posts: 20960Year and Trim: 2003 pontiac bonneville ssei 3800 series II hey guys just wondering been reading the posts and see alot of people are talking about the lim gasket is this hard to change any instructions also same question for exhaust manifold gasket how many miles does ur car have to have to change i have 117000 miles ...Binance, its CEO Changpeng Zhao; and COO Samuel Lim, are being sued by the U.S. Commodity Futures and Trading Commission Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange by volume; its...Replacing UIM, UIM Gasket, and LIM Gasket. Jump to Latest Follow ...Nov 28, 2011 · When you take out the bolts, clean the threads with a thread chaser (could be a nut with the same thread but with a slot cut through the side). Then use a little thread locker. I did this for the first time on my wife's 3800 and it's still fine. Not even a coolant elbow leak, but I could be lucky on that one. Feb 28, 2012. #19. I have never had my coolant elbow leak. But in my production year 3800 Series II the lower coolant is built in to the tensioner and is metal. But I did get a GM coolant elbow when I did my LIM gaskets and I used the metal LIM gaskets because I never want to do it again. I didn't use any RTV on the one plastic elbow and I have ...Hi I installed the new GM aluminum framed LIM gaskets & Dorman UIM last weekend on my friends '99 LeSabre. The car has 123,000 miles and I thought it was... Home. Forums. New posts Search forums. What's new. New posts New media New media comments New profile posts Latest activity. ... 3800 SII LIM gasket pics.Ok so I finally tackled my LIM gasket problem this weekend THINKING that was the problem with my coolant leak.... Turns out I was wrong. When I got the LIM off and flipped it over to clean and remove gasket I see a Giant Chunk of the steel missing from the bottom of it... The missing chunk sits...Had just completed replacing my UIM and LIM gaskets along with installing a new water pump, tensioner pulley and coolant elbows on our '04 Grand Prix GT with 104K miles. ... This guy sounds like he either A) hasn't worked on enough 3800's, which indicates limited overall experience based on sheer volume in the last 30yrs, or B) just defaults to ...The water pump + elbows were previously replaced a year ago, along with the UIM + LIM gaskets. Will replace the water pump again with a lifetime version and hope that fixes it. ... which you should remove and put new gasket on. The 3800 oil pumps cant be primed like others which have a prime port, so the factory shop manual says to remove ...The temperature can drop to 10/12 °C (50/54 °F) at night, and it can remain around 20/22 °C (68/72 °F) during the day. From June to November (but with a higher probability from …A lot of our communication these days with each other is digital, and today one of the companies enabling that — with APIs to build chat experiences into apps — is announcing a rou...LIM gasket? Jump to Latest Follow 717 views 3 replies 2 participants last post by BillBoost37 May 7, 2009. B. billberry12 Discussion starter 5 posts ...Dark Mode; Light Mode; menu Log inI’ve never heard of a 3800 LIM gasket leaking air. Creator. Topic Viewing 7 replies - 1 through 7 (of 7 total) Author. Replies. November 18, 2015 at 2:18 am #844776.AS for LIM gaskets though, they do fail on the Series 2 3800's, but don't confuse the problems with the Series 1 3800's. Those will go 200k on original LIM gaskets without a problem. QuoteGM 3800 Service Tips, Techniques, and Advice. The most common failures of the 3800 engine are spark plugs, wires, MAF sensors, ignition coils, plastic intake manifolds (NA engines only), and lower intake manifold (LIM) gaskets. This post discusses the causes and symptoms of a LIM failure. It will serve as a background to an upcoming post that ...I'm replacing LIM and upward Jump to Latest Follow 2K views 11 replies 4 participants last post byMichigan, Thumb's Up! Nov 30, 2010. #1. I'm getting ready for an UIM & LIM gasket replacement on my 1999 3800 SII. I am going to be acquiring the GM aluminum framed gasket pair @ $65 (dealer), but find myself wondering about all of the others that are shown in the PermaDryPlus kit at iNeedParts.com. The sellers aren't inclined to sell those ...2004 Buick Lesabre 3800 SII L36 engine. Did upper and lower intake manifold gaskets with the aluminum frame lower gaskets and upgraded upper manifold at 50k miles. Did as precaution because the upper manifold was leaking oil and previous owner never changed the coolant.I'm almost positive the Lim gaskets are leaking and I think the tranny is starting to go because it leaks about a half a quart ... Login Register: FAQ Search: It is currently Sat Mar 16, 2024 7:25 am: View unanswered posts | View active topics. Portal » Board index » Mechanical and Maintenance (no chat or performance) » Other 3800 powered cars.Looking at the lower left area of the below pic, there is a silverish appearance to the gasket. Not ... Login Register: FAQ Search: It is currently Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:19 am: View unanswered posts | View active topics. Portal » Board index » Mechanical and Maintenance (no chat or performance) » 2000-2005 (other than GXP)62 posts · Joined 2009. #2 · Oct 12, 2011. You really dont need them, but they make the job kind of easier. They are call come alongs or tow straps. You can always take off the dog bones then while in park rock the car back and fourth until the engine rocks forward then hit the ebrake. That will lock it in place until you release the ebrake.address : 2nd Floor,S.C.O Block,Industrial Complex Bari Brahmana, Jammu Jammu JK IN 181133. Company Name : HARYANA MALLEABLE AND ALLOY CASTINGS LIMITED. Category : Company limited by Shares. address : SIDCO INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX BARIBRAHMANA JAMMU JAMMU JAMMU AND KASHMIR JK IN 181133.Jun 3, 2011 · 3) Add distilled water (buy bulk from a supermarket) through the thermostat housing until full. 4) suction out from lower rad hose. 5) repeat steps 3-4 until the washings come clear. 6) fill completely with distilled water, connect rad hose and thermostat housing. Women are abandoning their jobs to make a point about pay disparity. It’s no secret that women are often paid less than their male counterparts—in the US, the median salary for wom...im about to change intake gaskets on my 2000 lesabre and have read some people just change the upper intake with a new one that has the metal sleeve in it is that necessary mine is leaking external at the moment car has 130000 on it plan on keeping it for a while ...It'll sometimes leak out, other times put coolant in the motor. I can't remember for sure but I seem to remember the 3800 being like the 3400/3100 motors and you'l have to remove the pushrods to replace the gaskets which means you'll want to pull the front valve cover.2) measure pressure with key on, engine running. (should be 40-50 (lower than engine off value) 3) goose throttle and watch pressure. (should maintain pressure, not decrease) 4) disconnect vacuum to fuel regulator, measure pressure. (should immediately increase and hold) 5) reattach vacuum to fuel regulator, shut engine off.The water pump + elbows were previously replaced a year ago, along with the UIM + LIM gaskets. Will replace the water pump again with a lifetime version and hope that fixes it. ... which you should remove and put new gasket on. The 3800 oil pumps cant be primed like others which have a prime port, so the factory shop manual says to remove ...The UIM gasket falling apart is nothing unusual when removing the OE gasket from a RWD 3800 for the first time, it's just cracking because half of it is sticking to the UIM and half to the LIM. ... At most, your LIM gasket was seeping a little coolant into the oil pan and/or externally outside the engine. Replace the gaskets, do a simple oil ...In today’s fast-paced laboratory environment, efficiency and cost savings are of paramount importance. Laboratory Information Management Systems (LIMS) have emerged as powerful too...This video shows the steps I did to replace the upper intake manifold (air plenum) on my 2001 Monte Carlo SS 3.8L 3800 Series II engine. The replacement was...I am interested in purchasing a 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix GT 3800 with only 84K miles on it. Everything inside and out is pretty much mint. However, there is a definite oil smell when running and when looking under the hood, there is oil (I think it is oil) visible along the entire length of the front/top of the engine.See other posts on this page for dealing with LIM gasket failures. [Photo 3] Servicing. GM does not have a replacement schedule for the PCV valve. A good practice would be to: ... Took my first 3800 intake off bought new upper intake which came with Pcv valve never found the old one started thinking maybe different models don’t have one lol ...also, i'm running my l67 throttle body for now, until i get some more money for a nortstar kit, thats an l67 tb gasket on the blower, should i match the blower gasket to the opening on the LIM? cartuning pt 61 intercooled turbo, built l67, zzp s2 heads, xp cam, dmh 2.5" electronic cutout...I see there is a fel pro gasket kit that is compatible with both the 1st and 2nd design. Comes with a few more parts like o ring etc. part # MS 98014 T on fel pro website. It looks silver in color. The fel pro gasket kits made specifically for the 1st or 2nd design look black. MS 95809 or MS...Dark Mode; Light Mode; menu Log inI've never heard of a 3800 LIM gasket leaking air. Creator. Topic Viewing 7 replies - 1 through 7 (of 7 total) Author. Replies. November 18, 2015 at 2:18 am #844776. college man. Moderator. ... I'm with you that you usually don't associate the LIM gaskets with vacuum leaks. You do associate the bad LIM's with coolant leaks though.I just purchased a ZZP intake, ported SC, and a Garlock LIM gasket. The intake has a lot of meat removed between the blower output and the wastegate hole. Trying to determine if this open area should be cut from the gasket, or left alone. ZZP seems to indicate the latter, and I am not buying into that. See attached pictures.Lower Intake Manifold (LIM) gaskets The lower intake manifold gaskets in 3800 engines deteriorate over time creating internal coolant leaks that can cause the same type of damage as a ruptured upper intake. While UIM failures are limited to the normally aspirated (non-supercharged) L-36 engines built from 95 â€" 05, the plastic-frame LIM ...Are the lim gaskets prone to leaking coolant on the 3100 like on the 3800 ? RON #2 Re: lim gaskets BillBoost37. View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Turbo is the way to go. Join Date Jul 2009 Location W Spfld Posts 26,833 Thanks (Received) 53 Likes (Received) 90 Dislikes (Received) 1 ...The LIM gasket is between the lower intake plenum and the heads. The UIM is the paper gasket between the lower intake plenum and the supercharger. ... 2004 Bonneville GXP | 60k | White Gold Tricoat | custom built supercharged 3800 hot rod | garage queen 1997 Corvette | 55k | Silver Metallic | Z06 wheels | Date-night …I replaced the LIM gaskets on my Buick at 66k miles. Even at that low mileage, they were estimated by folks very knowledgeable about 3800 V6's to be a month away from failure. If the 3500 and 3900 are related to the 3100/3400 V6's, I'm not surprised. The 3400, while a basically all right engine, had a lot of gasket issues.Buick lesabre with a 3.8 liter came in with an antifreeze Leek, customer stated the water pump had failed. after a quick description over the phone i had a ...I'm replacing LIM and upward Jump to Latest Follow 2K views 11 replies 4 participants last post byThis how-to video shows replacement of the lower intake manifold (LIM) gasket and lifters on Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with a supercharged L67 Series II 3800 3....I have a 2001 gtp. I was driving last night and the engine light came on, followed by severe miss fire, tons of white smoke and the exhaust and engine bay smells like fresh fuel. Codes were po204 and po304 if I remember correctly "injector 4 circuit open" and miss fire cyl 4. There is no...The 3800 series engines are loosely based off the turbo Buick V6 that went in the Grand Nationals and T-Types. That engine is loosely based off the old aluminum block Buick V8 engine from the 60s that was called the Fireball V8. ... Crap, how difficult is it to do the rear valve cover? I already did the LIM gasket replacement on mine, but silly ...3800 Series III Lower Intake Manifold Gasket DIY - YouTube. Cole Does Things. 67 subscribers. Subscribed. 269. 24K views 3 years ago. DIY video on how to replace the lower intake manifold...The temperature can drop to 10/12 °C (50/54 °F) at night, and it can remain around 20/22 °C (68/72 °F) during the day. From June to November (but with a higher probability from …I read Engine Builder Magazine that the felpro gaskets use three concentric sealing beads to provide redundancy and can seal minor pitting but again..paranoid.. Its an excellent article on the GM 3800 problems and the new materials used in the UIM and UIM/LIM Gaskets from various mfgs. Intake Manifold GasketsSubject: Re: LIM and supercharger gasket questions Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:07 am Answered my own question. Yellow O-rings are throttle body heater pipe O-rings gm p/n 24501563Dec 16, 2015 · I read Engine Builder Magazine that the felpro gaskets use three concentric sealing beads to provide redundancy and can seal minor pitting but again..paranoid.. Its an excellent article on the GM 3800 problems and the new materials used in the UIM and UIM/LIM Gaskets from various mfgs. Intake Manifold Gaskets 2000 L67 LIM gasket? 755 Views 2 Replies 3 Participants Last post by taztassio, May 21, 2009. T. twinrotor Discussion Starter ...Location. Illinois. Oct 25, 2010. #1. It finally happened. 1999 Park Avenue, 87,000 miles. Took it in for the rear brake pads, and while the mechanic was driving it to check the brakes, the coolant passage through the intake manifold failed. He barely got it back to the shop before the plugs finally fouled out from the coolant that got sucked ...GM 3800 Service Tips, Techniques, and Advice. The most common failures of the 3800 engine are spark plugs, wires, MAF sensors, ignition coils, plastic intake manifolds (NA engines only), and lower intake manifold (LIM) gaskets. This post discusses the causes and symptoms of a LIM failure. It will serve as a background to an upcoming post that ...Swap the upper plenum for an aftermarket one with a new reduced diameter EGR chimney and use the GM aluminum frame gaskets. The since 08 or so gaskets have been bulletproof. Swap the coolant elbows to the LIM with the new aftermarket aluminum ones. Switch over to GO5 or John Deere Coolguard II and it will live forever.2. LIM gasket - Ask if the lower intake manifold (LIM) gasket has been replaced (and when if it has). This is the most common failure for Series 2 and 3 3800 engines because of the use of Dexcool coolant. The repair cost can range between $800 and $1500 depending upon who does the work.However, there does seem to be a relationship between 2EHA and the nylon-66 in the LIM gaskets. -Larry ... A forum community dedicated to all General Motors makes and models owners and enthusiasts running the 3800 series engine. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, builds, tunes, superchargers ...Post subject: Did newer 3800's get aluminum LIM gaskets from the factory? Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:27 pm . Retired Gearhead: Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:28 am Posts: 1808 Location: San Diego, CA Year and Trim: 04 Lesabre, Stock 98 Lesabre, Retired There are three "generations" of OEM S2 LIM gaskets: ...LIM and UIM gaskets. Jump to Latest Follow 1 - 4 of 4 Posts. G. Goofyexponent · Registered. Joined Jul 28, 2012 · 11 Posts. Discussion Starter ...Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:56 pm Posts: 565 Location: Savannah, Georgia Year and Trim: 2001 SSEiPossible botched LIM job, is it possible to get oil in the coolant through the LIM? ...Feb 25, 2009 · LIM gaskets, most of the 3.8L cars out there have bad original gaskets. Replacing with the same black plastic seems to yield the same results, more bad gaskets. GM changed the design and came out with an aluminum gasket for the LIM's and those seem to be well made and don't deform and fail like the plastic ones do.

If the gaskets are leaking externally, change them NOW!!! Bar's Leaks will be worse than nothing since it's giving a false sense of security. Also, it won't work with the design of the LIM gaskets. Folks have tried, and purchased themselves another 3800 as a result. For the oil pressure, the gauge and sender are known liars.. Is a square foot 12x12

lim gasket 3800

The posts on this page explain the failure of the lower intake manifold (LIM) gaskets in the GM 3800 V6 engine, and show you how to identify it and repair it. This is the most common failure of the engine, and can lead to the destruction of the engine unless fixed in time. It usually happens after 12 years or 80k-120k miles, usually a few ...BillBoost37. 1565 posts · Joined 2006. #2 · Dec 16, 2008. You can use almost any sealant. I prefer the GM Pipe Sealant with PTFE. Even an RTV should work though. On the coolant elbows, make sure and lube up the o-rings before you put them in. 1997 Bonneville SSEi 1/4 Mile 13.185. 1997 Regal GS.Ok, so I'm having a mini meet to help change my LIM Gaskets, and my valve covers are leaking, so that needs to be done ... Login Register: FAQ Search: It is currently Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:55 am: View unanswered posts ...I have set up the following page resource to answer all questions about the LIM gasket failure issues. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=391987807832424&id ...It is currently Tue Jan 16, 2024 5:29 am: View unanswered posts | View active topics. Portal » Board index » Mechanical and Maintenance (no chat or performance) » » Board index » Mechanical and Maintenance (no chat or performance) »General Discussion. General TechOct 12, 2005 · Mitchell shows 3.3 hours to replace the Lower Intake Manifold gasket. Labor rates are about $120/hr over here, so I would expect to spend about $400 on labor. The Fel-Pro "2nd design" Lower Intake Manifold Gasket lists for $53 on Rockauto. Head gasket repair can be an expensive, but necessary repair for your vehicle. Knowing the average cost of a head gasket repair can help you budget and plan for this important main...Strange squealing. i have a 1998 buick regal LS with the 3800 naturally aspirated. What happens is once the engine gets warmed up, i get a squeal coming from the engine. The squeal sound like a belt slipping or a bearing going out. I have replaced the belt, the belt tensioner, the alternator, and the water pump.The temperature can drop to 10/12 °C (50/54 °F) at night, and it can remain around 20/22 °C (68/72 °F) during the day. From June to November (but with a higher probability from …Replacing UIM, UIM Gasket, and LIM Gasket. Jump to Latest Follow ...I know there are some other threads on this topic, I did not want to hijack them though. I've had issues with my car not wanting to start on occasion when it was warm, or if I used the AC while it was idling. After about 2-3 years without being able to find out what the problem was, I'm pretty...can bad uim lim gaskets. Jump to Latest Follow 1K views 9 replies 5 participants last post by Kiss4aFrog Sep 4, 2013. F ...UIM/LIM Gaskets. Impala79; Feb 7, 2023; 0 494 Feb 7, 2023. by Impala79. I. Series III UIM on a Series II. Impala79; Jan 31, 2023; 4 1K ... 3800 series 2 leaks coolant into engine when its cold outside. Shermanator65; Jul 27, 2022; 17 4K Nov 14, 2022 ...Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:56 pm Posts: 565 Location: Savannah, Georgia Year and Trim: 2001 SSEi3800 v6 3.8 gm series ii intake manifold coolant leak causing hydro. Intake manifold lifter gm gasket 8l lower l67 replacementLower intake manifold (lim) gasket / lifter replacement on gm 3800 l67 Intake manifold gasket gm impala prix plenum3800 l36 lower l26 supercharged ported.I know there are some other threads on this topic, I did not want to hijack them though. I've had issues with my car not wanting to start on occasion when it was warm, or if I used the AC while it was idling. After about 2-3 years without being able to find out what the problem was, I'm pretty...Had just completed replacing my UIM and LIM gaskets along with installing a new water pump, tensioner pulley and coolant elbows on our '04 Grand Prix GT with 104K miles. ... This guy sounds like he either A) hasn't worked on enough 3800's, which indicates limited overall experience based on sheer volume in the last 30yrs, or B) just defaults to ....

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